12- Sat, 8 May 2010
Ram:
You are right, a SS number is not compulsory in US. If one wants to live outside of regular society, like some religious groups such as the Amish, one can get by without one. However, nearly everyone in the US has one and that led me to believe that it was a requirement before your questioning. Thanks to your insistence, I have learned something. Copied below is part of what the Wikipedia says. More can seen at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number .
Regards,
Rajaram, IITM
Thursday, August 5, 2010
11 - Wed, 5 May 2010
Harwant / Joshy / Rambo Et Al:
All of you have put forward strong and valid points in both ends of the spectrum.
Some of you have pointed out that in a society with low literacy rates (65% official rate and 20% if one considers that a grade 8 education is what defines a literate person), a significant % of politicians either convicted criminals or have serious criminal charges pending, an extremely corrupt bureaucracy, a corrupt judiciary (except for the Supreme Court and some High Courts) a politicized police force that kow tows to the party in power, porous borders as in the East, and a teaming populace of 1.2 billion - to attempt such a gargutan task is both costly and is a recipe a failure.
Some others who are more optimistic, envision a fully developed India (2020 if you believe the former President's book), with extremely high real literacy rates, a robust economy, vastly reduced corruption insofar as the common populace is concerned (due to rapid economic growth), and requiring a universal ID system that provides the appropriate entitlements to the common populace.
The US and Canada (and possibly others) have universal ID systems termed the Social Security and Social Insurance cards that are provided even to legal aliens temporarily residing in these nations. Without a SS or SIN card, one cannot work and pay taxes, in addition to other uses.
In the context of India, we already have a PAN (personal account #) as one of you already pointed out, and we could expand this and issue them to all, irrespective of whether one pays tax or not, just as in the US and Canada. This expansion could be done in stages and thereby avoid the huge cost of reinventing the wheel as it were by the Manmohan administration.
Ved Vedamanikam, IITM
Harwant / Joshy / Rambo Et Al:
All of you have put forward strong and valid points in both ends of the spectrum.
Some of you have pointed out that in a society with low literacy rates (65% official rate and 20% if one considers that a grade 8 education is what defines a literate person), a significant % of politicians either convicted criminals or have serious criminal charges pending, an extremely corrupt bureaucracy, a corrupt judiciary (except for the Supreme Court and some High Courts) a politicized police force that kow tows to the party in power, porous borders as in the East, and a teaming populace of 1.2 billion - to attempt such a gargutan task is both costly and is a recipe a failure.
Some others who are more optimistic, envision a fully developed India (2020 if you believe the former President's book), with extremely high real literacy rates, a robust economy, vastly reduced corruption insofar as the common populace is concerned (due to rapid economic growth), and requiring a universal ID system that provides the appropriate entitlements to the common populace.
The US and Canada (and possibly others) have universal ID systems termed the Social Security and Social Insurance cards that are provided even to legal aliens temporarily residing in these nations. Without a SS or SIN card, one cannot work and pay taxes, in addition to other uses.
In the context of India, we already have a PAN (personal account #) as one of you already pointed out, and we could expand this and issue them to all, irrespective of whether one pays tax or not, just as in the US and Canada. This expansion could be done in stages and thereby avoid the huge cost of reinventing the wheel as it were by the Manmohan administration.
Ved Vedamanikam, IITM
10 - Wed, 05 May 2010
As one who has stayed put in India all these years, I do look at the scheme's positive features than negative features
India's progress has been tardy but steady.
It is now being considered a world class economy on GDP terms. The situation is quite different when we consider "per capita" terms.
Yes, there are a lot of dark portions - bad politicians etc. But that is the price we have to pay for keeping the country a democracy.
Everyone in the US, even H1-B residents, has a social security number. In any country, there should some means of identifying every individual who is a citizen. Voters ID will preclude all kids. Passport is too expensive for the individual, and too time consuming, considering police verification. Is there any other alternative someone can suggest?
By the way, I would consider it a very patriotic action of Nandan to make use of IT for social cause in India after making substantial money doing low end jobs for various foreigners! Let them come up with solutions to the various issues you have all indicated. I am sure Indian brains are sharper than many others' and come up with good ideas given support and encouragement. My own experience is same.
90% of IT usage has been for entertainment and recreation. Let this be one good contribution of IT.
I have a grudge against IT industry that they have totally distorted the salary scales and entire engineering base of the country is now eroded. There are hardly any good experienced engineers in the industry.
You won't believe it, now Civil is the most in demand discipline because Infrastructure demands a lot of civil engineers!!
Cheers
M. Hariharan, IITM
As one who has stayed put in India all these years, I do look at the scheme's positive features than negative features
India's progress has been tardy but steady.
It is now being considered a world class economy on GDP terms. The situation is quite different when we consider "per capita" terms.
Yes, there are a lot of dark portions - bad politicians etc. But that is the price we have to pay for keeping the country a democracy.
Everyone in the US, even H1-B residents, has a social security number. In any country, there should some means of identifying every individual who is a citizen. Voters ID will preclude all kids. Passport is too expensive for the individual, and too time consuming, considering police verification. Is there any other alternative someone can suggest?
By the way, I would consider it a very patriotic action of Nandan to make use of IT for social cause in India after making substantial money doing low end jobs for various foreigners! Let them come up with solutions to the various issues you have all indicated. I am sure Indian brains are sharper than many others' and come up with good ideas given support and encouragement. My own experience is same.
90% of IT usage has been for entertainment and recreation. Let this be one good contribution of IT.
I have a grudge against IT industry that they have totally distorted the salary scales and entire engineering base of the country is now eroded. There are hardly any good experienced engineers in the industry.
You won't believe it, now Civil is the most in demand discipline because Infrastructure demands a lot of civil engineers!!
Cheers
M. Hariharan, IITM
9 - Wed, 5 May 2010
I believe in having a good system of ID but cannot dismiss the arguments of Rambo for many reasons.
WE DO HAVE VOTER'S ID BUT IT IS BEING MISUSED TO DENY PERSONS LIKE ME THE RIGHT TO VOTE! I along with my wife have gone three times to the concerned office in Mumbai with all proofs, filled up the necessary forms got photographed at their office but till now no voters ID has ever been issued to me or my wife. Last time I visited the concerned government office, I was told to come after three months. Every time I went to get the ID or register myself as a voter, it was a big pain to do so plus I had to shell out a couple of hundred rupees to reach their office, suffer the inconveniences of traffic, stand in long lines of waiting people and have finally given up.
Rambo has raised some very important key issues and one of them is:
"When will not having a UID become an issue and make the person an alien?"
I am not against UID per say but looking at the dismal record of politicians and governments in India in implementing anything seriously, I am very skeptical about it. Let the government first provide a voters ID to all eligible person before considering other utopian schemes!
As an engineer, I was taught that whenever we design an critical system, there must always be back up systems. If one system fails, the others take over. Also, I was taught at IIMA that for every plan, there must always be a contingency plan.
There is no alternative back up for a voter's ID. I am sure that with idiots as IAS officials and criminals as ministers running the government administration in India, they cannot expect any rational thinking. So there may not be any back up for UID too. I do not believe in the uniqueness of anything but God. I strongly believe in the necessity of having alternatives. If one cannot marry a particular girl or boy, or one cannot get admission in an IIT or IIM, life does not come to a halt!
I am surprised that that the IITM intelligentsia has not really thought through the important issues involved when reacting to Rambo's arguments. When most of us cannot agree on or believe in one unique exclusive God, and need to have God of Rain, God of Wealth, God of Beauty, God of Creation, God of Destruction, God of Fertility, etc., what makes my friends believe in the uniqueness or exclusivity of UID? Why we should not have only one party rule? You may argue and say it is undemocratic.
If you believe in democracy, how can you believe in UNIQUENESS of an ID? We should support UID provided we are sure of what we are supporting and what we are getting into. We must always have backup systems supporting the main systems.
On the lighter side, recently, somebody argued with me that if backup systems are so important, why not to have a back up for a wife? I told the guy, yes, he could try? After one week, when I called the guy's home, I was told by his wife that he was admitted in a hospital with broken face and legs!
So please do not stretch my argument too far. If you do, you would doing so on your own risk!
Hope that you would respond and not just sleep over the issues!
Dr. Harwant Singh Chhabra
I believe in having a good system of ID but cannot dismiss the arguments of Rambo for many reasons.
WE DO HAVE VOTER'S ID BUT IT IS BEING MISUSED TO DENY PERSONS LIKE ME THE RIGHT TO VOTE! I along with my wife have gone three times to the concerned office in Mumbai with all proofs, filled up the necessary forms got photographed at their office but till now no voters ID has ever been issued to me or my wife. Last time I visited the concerned government office, I was told to come after three months. Every time I went to get the ID or register myself as a voter, it was a big pain to do so plus I had to shell out a couple of hundred rupees to reach their office, suffer the inconveniences of traffic, stand in long lines of waiting people and have finally given up.
Rambo has raised some very important key issues and one of them is:
"When will not having a UID become an issue and make the person an alien?"
I am not against UID per say but looking at the dismal record of politicians and governments in India in implementing anything seriously, I am very skeptical about it. Let the government first provide a voters ID to all eligible person before considering other utopian schemes!
As an engineer, I was taught that whenever we design an critical system, there must always be back up systems. If one system fails, the others take over. Also, I was taught at IIMA that for every plan, there must always be a contingency plan.
There is no alternative back up for a voter's ID. I am sure that with idiots as IAS officials and criminals as ministers running the government administration in India, they cannot expect any rational thinking. So there may not be any back up for UID too. I do not believe in the uniqueness of anything but God. I strongly believe in the necessity of having alternatives. If one cannot marry a particular girl or boy, or one cannot get admission in an IIT or IIM, life does not come to a halt!
I am surprised that that the IITM intelligentsia has not really thought through the important issues involved when reacting to Rambo's arguments. When most of us cannot agree on or believe in one unique exclusive God, and need to have God of Rain, God of Wealth, God of Beauty, God of Creation, God of Destruction, God of Fertility, etc., what makes my friends believe in the uniqueness or exclusivity of UID? Why we should not have only one party rule? You may argue and say it is undemocratic.
If you believe in democracy, how can you believe in UNIQUENESS of an ID? We should support UID provided we are sure of what we are supporting and what we are getting into. We must always have backup systems supporting the main systems.
On the lighter side, recently, somebody argued with me that if backup systems are so important, why not to have a back up for a wife? I told the guy, yes, he could try? After one week, when I called the guy's home, I was told by his wife that he was admitted in a hospital with broken face and legs!
So please do not stretch my argument too far. If you do, you would doing so on your own risk!
Hope that you would respond and not just sleep over the issues!
Dr. Harwant Singh Chhabra
8 - Wed, 7 Jul 2010
Ram ram, I do not know what you expect to achieve by this except some more breast beating. In my opinion your worst fears understate the problem. I would christen it as india's cyber Bhopal. Best of luck. It is just the greed of a small group throttling all individual freedom.
sent from My 3GS IPhone
P.S.RAMNATHAN, IITM
Ram ram, I do not know what you expect to achieve by this except some more breast beating. In my opinion your worst fears understate the problem. I would christen it as india's cyber Bhopal. Best of luck. It is just the greed of a small group throttling all individual freedom.
sent from My 3GS IPhone
P.S.RAMNATHAN, IITM
7 - Fri, 31 Jul 2009
UID will have national security implications. No resourseful country will allow its UID to be done by foreign countries or companies. The whole technology has to be indegenous.
The chip has to be produced in secured labs and have unique design and features to prevent duplication.
Otherwise the corporations will just misuse it to their advantage and government will be paying for it with foreign loans. The chip readers also should be indegenous with security features to prevent reading the chips from a far.
The readers may be combined with fing print verification to prevent misuse. There could be special cards or soft features to exceptions like people with hand injuries or birth defects.
Todays hi-tech criminals are worse that the common thug engaged in forgery.
The common thugs has limited scope the hi-tech thugs have long reach.
Shravan, IIT Kgp
UID will have national security implications. No resourseful country will allow its UID to be done by foreign countries or companies. The whole technology has to be indegenous.
The chip has to be produced in secured labs and have unique design and features to prevent duplication.
Otherwise the corporations will just misuse it to their advantage and government will be paying for it with foreign loans. The chip readers also should be indegenous with security features to prevent reading the chips from a far.
The readers may be combined with fing print verification to prevent misuse. There could be special cards or soft features to exceptions like people with hand injuries or birth defects.
Todays hi-tech criminals are worse that the common thug engaged in forgery.
The common thugs has limited scope the hi-tech thugs have long reach.
Shravan, IIT Kgp
6 - Thu, 30 Jul 2009
Please explain why a Unique number (UID) is necessary ?. What are the benefits of a billion people having a Unique number (UID) ?.
Ram,
The fact is that a large proportion of Indians have no "recognized" id of any sort, and this denies them various kinds of entitlement, including those available for BPL families and many others. Another example is that they are denied any credit facilties from organized banking channels, which cost much less than other channels (informal moneylenders and MFIs), which they are forced to use.
My take is that the UID initiative must solve this problem, above all.
The press releases from NN are not encouraging in this respect, since he has now focussed on UIN rather than UID.
There are very many other good reasons for a UID scheme. While on the one hand hundreds of millions suffer the consequences of lack of id, we also have huge scams in terms of fake cards and ghost cards of various types, starting with BPL cards and PAN cards. I read a recent report that the number of BPL cards issued exceeds the total number of families. Obviously, this level of faking can seriously derail many initiatives, including budgeted subsidies for the poor. So, one would hope that the UId would address this problem as well.
N.V.Krishna, IITM
Please explain why a Unique number (UID) is necessary ?. What are the benefits of a billion people having a Unique number (UID) ?.
Ram,
The fact is that a large proportion of Indians have no "recognized" id of any sort, and this denies them various kinds of entitlement, including those available for BPL families and many others. Another example is that they are denied any credit facilties from organized banking channels, which cost much less than other channels (informal moneylenders and MFIs), which they are forced to use.
My take is that the UID initiative must solve this problem, above all.
The press releases from NN are not encouraging in this respect, since he has now focussed on UIN rather than UID.
There are very many other good reasons for a UID scheme. While on the one hand hundreds of millions suffer the consequences of lack of id, we also have huge scams in terms of fake cards and ghost cards of various types, starting with BPL cards and PAN cards. I read a recent report that the number of BPL cards issued exceeds the total number of families. Obviously, this level of faking can seriously derail many initiatives, including budgeted subsidies for the poor. So, one would hope that the UId would address this problem as well.
N.V.Krishna, IITM
5 - Tue, 28 Jul 2009
UID is just another tool it depends on what the government plan to do with it.
It can help the development of the nation or destroy it by putting identification and tracking information in the hands of the corporations ready to market junk to a dumbed down population.
Shravan, IIT Kgp
UID is just another tool it depends on what the government plan to do with it.
It can help the development of the nation or destroy it by putting identification and tracking information in the hands of the corporations ready to market junk to a dumbed down population.
Shravan, IIT Kgp
4 - Tue, 28 Jul 2009
I am in complete agreement with the extremely sane and 'probical' submissions from you. Yes, there is no corruption in India anymore. It has permeated to the MBR of the Indian drive and has gone beyond being a pandemic. You cannot start even a petty shop without being 'touched' by organised crime which is nothing but institutionalised corruption. Nanden probably is the 'external' marketing guy for Infy and they see a revenue model in that. Beyond that it is certain to be a non-starter. When Sam Pitroda did the telecom thing, corruption was still a long way even from CMM 1 whereas we are above CMM 5!
If Infy wants to lose its 'sheen', there is no better route than UID.
P.S.Ramnathan, IITM
I am in complete agreement with the extremely sane and 'probical' submissions from you. Yes, there is no corruption in India anymore. It has permeated to the MBR of the Indian drive and has gone beyond being a pandemic. You cannot start even a petty shop without being 'touched' by organised crime which is nothing but institutionalised corruption. Nanden probably is the 'external' marketing guy for Infy and they see a revenue model in that. Beyond that it is certain to be a non-starter. When Sam Pitroda did the telecom thing, corruption was still a long way even from CMM 1 whereas we are above CMM 5!
If Infy wants to lose its 'sheen', there is no better route than UID.
P.S.Ramnathan, IITM
3 - 24/7/09 12:09 AM,
All along, our complaint has been that India is ruled by ministers who never went to school. This has affected lot of sectors which needs at least a basic understanding of science/engineering/technology like petroleum, heavy industries, telecom, shipping, space, mining... to name a few. The bane of some of the erstwhile gem public sector companies in India can be attributed to this lack of understanding ( + corruption) of these illiterate ministers. Brilliant technocrats at the top of these public sectors had to succumb to these ministers.
Considering all that, isn't it a great move by an elected Govt., to bring one among the technocrats ( one among us ), who understands the work involved behind it to lead this project from the concept stage onwards. Instead of making him just another bureaucrat govt gave him full power as a Cabinet minister.
The Income tax PAN number project is a success in India. DIN number project (electronic director information for limited companies ) is evolving. This Unique Number also will eventually become a success and a necessity.
Rajiv Gandhi brought in Sam Pitroda and that helped Inidia for what it is today in telecom.
Lets hope the same effect from Nandan Nilakeni 10 years from now.
He has already started his job. From today's paper:
"We will be issuing the first set of identification numbers in 12 to 18 months," he told reporters here.
Nilekani said Ram Sevak Sharma, a 1978 batch Jharkhand cadre IAS officer, will take over as Secretary and CEO of the organisation.
Thanks
Vinod, IITB
All along, our complaint has been that India is ruled by ministers who never went to school. This has affected lot of sectors which needs at least a basic understanding of science/engineering/technology like petroleum, heavy industries, telecom, shipping, space, mining... to name a few. The bane of some of the erstwhile gem public sector companies in India can be attributed to this lack of understanding ( + corruption) of these illiterate ministers. Brilliant technocrats at the top of these public sectors had to succumb to these ministers.
Considering all that, isn't it a great move by an elected Govt., to bring one among the technocrats ( one among us ), who understands the work involved behind it to lead this project from the concept stage onwards. Instead of making him just another bureaucrat govt gave him full power as a Cabinet minister.
The Income tax PAN number project is a success in India. DIN number project (electronic director information for limited companies ) is evolving. This Unique Number also will eventually become a success and a necessity.
Rajiv Gandhi brought in Sam Pitroda and that helped Inidia for what it is today in telecom.
Lets hope the same effect from Nandan Nilakeni 10 years from now.
He has already started his job. From today's paper:
"We will be issuing the first set of identification numbers in 12 to 18 months," he told reporters here.
Nilekani said Ram Sevak Sharma, a 1978 batch Jharkhand cadre IAS officer, will take over as Secretary and CEO of the organisation.
Thanks
Vinod, IITB
2 - Tue, 4 Aug 2009
I am of the opinion that UID is a great project and asking Nandan to take is also the right decision. Having built a fine company like infosys, India is lucky to have the seasoned professionals like him to guide this. One need not have expertise in every subject or worked in the slums to know the problems of issuing ID cards. How many of us who are offering comments have idea of rural India or urban slums? Still all of us are contributing by expressing our opinions.
Just one use of dispending PDS kerosene itself can pay for the entire cost of this system by manifolds and also will usher in a revolution in fighting corruption in India. PDS kerosene in my view is the mother of all corruption generating more than Rs 20 to 30 thousand crores of black money and add to it the domestic LPG. It will be more than Rs 40000 crores. The first time I heard of this project I was excited for this reason alone.
Yes passports are forged. Yes ration cards are forged. Yes Pakistanis will issue UID cards. There will be hundred and one thing that can go wrong. The more we know how it can be misuded, preventive steps can be built. Still it will not be even 95% perfect. But if we can achieve that kind of perfection one can claim that it is a great project. Let us remember perfection has been proven to be the great enemy of the good.
With good centralized system (suugested by Sri kumar), a system can revolutionize the entire welfare dispension system. In fact some politicians who instinctively know that their game may be over, are critical of UID system.
Bhamy V Shenoy, IITM
I am of the opinion that UID is a great project and asking Nandan to take is also the right decision. Having built a fine company like infosys, India is lucky to have the seasoned professionals like him to guide this. One need not have expertise in every subject or worked in the slums to know the problems of issuing ID cards. How many of us who are offering comments have idea of rural India or urban slums? Still all of us are contributing by expressing our opinions.
Just one use of dispending PDS kerosene itself can pay for the entire cost of this system by manifolds and also will usher in a revolution in fighting corruption in India. PDS kerosene in my view is the mother of all corruption generating more than Rs 20 to 30 thousand crores of black money and add to it the domestic LPG. It will be more than Rs 40000 crores. The first time I heard of this project I was excited for this reason alone.
Yes passports are forged. Yes ration cards are forged. Yes Pakistanis will issue UID cards. There will be hundred and one thing that can go wrong. The more we know how it can be misuded, preventive steps can be built. Still it will not be even 95% perfect. But if we can achieve that kind of perfection one can claim that it is a great project. Let us remember perfection has been proven to be the great enemy of the good.
With good centralized system (suugested by Sri kumar), a system can revolutionize the entire welfare dispension system. In fact some politicians who instinctively know that their game may be over, are critical of UID system.
Bhamy V Shenoy, IITM
1 - Tue, 4 Aug 2009
A very interesting discussion. At one point I am for UID, next, when Ram presents his rejoinders, I find myself against it! I think Ram is asking the right questions. How will this new ID, technically more complicated, and highly centralized, improve on the IDs we already have? USA has millions of illegal aliens, no matter how complex the ID system, it does not solve this basic problem. Incidentally, the social security number issued in USA is optional. http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10002.html
Selvaraj, IITM
A very interesting discussion. At one point I am for UID, next, when Ram presents his rejoinders, I find myself against it! I think Ram is asking the right questions. How will this new ID, technically more complicated, and highly centralized, improve on the IDs we already have? USA has millions of illegal aliens, no matter how complex the ID system, it does not solve this basic problem. Incidentally, the social security number issued in USA is optional. http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10002.html
Selvaraj, IITM
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