9th September 2010

From: Gajendra Sidana
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 09:52:14 +0300

All I can say is that it feels bad to see that a country that has the potential to be a world leader in all the spheres is just busy putting nails in its own coffin. India contributed 25% of world GDP (there was a reason that all the explorers wanted to find route to India) at one time and thanks to our fragmented society a handful of foreigners ruled us for 200 years and brought us to shambles. Now after so much hoopla over the past two decades we are just 1.2% of world GDP and we are not even able to assimilate that. We are finding ways to differentiate ourselves from other Indians instead of uniting.

BTW Happy Independence Day!

Regards,
Gajendra
______________________________________________________
 
From: sraj
Subject: Re: IIT Global Discussion Group Re: IIT Global Current Affairs : ID number

I fully agree with you, over the relevance of UIDAI; there are far more important things we should be doing. I posted my writeup more because of the report that the government is about to blow up its coffers to implement this scheme (and I hate the idea of being fingerprinted when I am likely to leave my fingerprints all over the place.)

Regards,
Selvaraj
_____________________________________________________

From: Balasubramanyan
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:49:25 -0700 (PDT)
New comment on 432 - Tender for a PR Agency from the UIDAI.

Look at the media heavy weights that they have already hired and one wonders when they will hire domain experts and what is the need for a PR agency when you have so much of internal expertise in media.

Considering the amount of air-time Nilekani gets one wonders how he gets the time to oversee all the work that he keeps talking about in his interviews.

Hiring a PR agency is nothing more than an attempt to manufacture consent against folks critiquing Aadhaar. What we need is a debate not spin doctoring.

The last thing we need is for the government to learn all the wrong lessons from the corporate sector - PR spinning being on top of the pile. 

_________________________________________________

From: Satish Jha
Reply-To:
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:46:41 -0400
Re: UID Not in Public Interest  

Interesting! When I had questions, there were few who saw it the way I thought. I think Nandan will find a more practical way to handle things. But that may not take away many apprehensions and some very fundamental questions about UID at all.
___________________________________________________




 

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010
Subject: Re: Aadhaar - What Next ? 

After sifting through the bulk of interesting material on the aadhar blog created by you, I have the following to say:

a. The project Aadhar intentionally or unintentionally aims to 'institutionalize poverty' in India, the way it is being done by other such 'mega' welfare schemes like NREGA etc. are unsuccessfully trying to attempt.

b. There are multifarious other robust mechanisms of establishing an individual's identity, which are time tested and have been operating in a decentralized manner. What is the rationale and relevance of spending such a massive chunk of money on a parallel regime. Why not use a fraction of this money on empowering the existing systems & process. Driving License, Ration Card, Election ID Card...A robust set of systems is far better than a single integrated whole. If one system falters, the others are there to take charge.

c. A large number of similarly ambitious 'digital enablement' projects are lying stagnant, unheeded and ignored which can empower the poor people of India much more than anything else. For e.g. in the year 1988, on the behest of the Planning Commission a project namely DISNIC (disnic.nic.in) was conceived to accentuate Local Level Spatial Planning for the villages of the country. The entire project was the brainchild of Mr. Madaswamy Moni who is the DDG at NIC, Delhi  Even after two decades, the project has not witnessed any tangible success due to non-allocation of funds. Mr. Moni, who is an IIT Madras Alumni, is the father of a number of such highly relevant but poorly funded projects. The holistic mapping, documentation and planning of Village resources is certainly the key for a better value enhancement and thereby empowering the local economies.

d. In order to understand the far reaching implications of Aadhar, it would be imperative to prepare a detailed progress report on the various 'digital enablement' projects in the country. It would give a reality check as to what all we have been able to accomplish.

e. At times, when we are not able to accomplish results despite the best of resource allocation, we should certainly sit back and question the founding premises on the basis of which we started in the first place. Projects like Aadhar, which inevitably empower and facilitate a centralized authority have a number of fundamental weaknesses. If these foundations are at least analyzed and questioned, it won't take much time for even a layman to understand the niraadhar of aadhar. 

In the Indian Policy and Administrative Framework, technical projects with fancy outcomes & exorbitant costs are favored over    low cost simple techno-managerial interventions which can increase the efficiency.

f. The over arching centralization of governance, compounded with 'mega' welfare schemes for the poor is nothing but political commerce. Welfare schemes, if they are not locally designed and planned, just can't reach their fruition in a centralized planning regime.

Raghav Mittal, IIT Kgp

121 - Sun, 8 Aug 2010
Subject: Re: Aadhaar - What Next ?

Ram,  I too feel this is an expensive waste. There is no shortage of ways to identify people - ration cards, electoral ID cards, Bank accounts (where you are supposed to be properly identified through know your customer initiatives), birth records, school leaving certificates..... With the existing database it should be possible to identify at least 95% of the people. If some people don't have any such records they can be dealt with separately. If a number has to be alloted it can easily be done based on the existing database.

Regards,

120 - Fri, 6 Aug 2010

Subject: Re: Aadhaar - What Next ?

Ram,

You do me wrong. I really do share your concerns re the Aadhaar program and let me tell you that no program to empower the poor in India is going to be perfect but there is a real need to give 60% of our people an identity.  For example, I have seen the desire in rural areas to get Voter id cards and have seen how tough the blokes had to work to get them.

To my mind the Aadhaar which only gives a unique id number to only those who want it ( it definitely is not compulsory ) and   as far as I know the number is not going to be on a  paper posted to the recepients  and the "bank accounts" being envisaged are not the usual commercial banks but a no frills one which can be operated by the village shopkeeper with safeguards built in .

Not every panwallah is going to be a registrar but only agencies at the taluk level. Sure the scheme is going to cost money and hopefully Nandan is addressing all issues and trying to reduce costs. But to my mind giving an identity to all  those who need one is really necessary.

The program is far from perfect but I feel they are going to address the issue you have raised to the best of their ability.

Like you there are  many intellectuals who have raised a lot of doubts in India to. But to Nilekeni's credit he is willing to discuss and address these issues. I urge you to contribute your concerns to the Q&A session being organised by the PAN IIT group and surely Nilekini will also benefit with this exchange.

Incidentally Amartya Sen too was in favour of giving identities to those who cannot get one though like you he had some reservations on issues which would need to be addressed and overcome . He was not outright against the Aadhaar scheme as such.
Cheers!

119 - Fri, 6 Aug 2010

Hello Ram,   Aadhaar - What Next ?

I too thought about it and my previous mail to you was a result of my thinking.

Instead of just opposing, I thought we should atleast point out limitations and need for action elsewhere as Aadhaar is coming anyway. However, I feel that it may wither away after a year or two like Sethu samudram Project.

How will the message reach wider audience?  Your question is timely one.

Only if the TV & other media take up the issue along with opposition parties in parliament. It happened in case of Commonwealth Games and now some action is promised after days of highlighting by media and parliament.

I am really wondering why no opposition pary is taking up the issue? You may focus on sending the report on inadequacy of Aadhaar & its high cost to all political party leaders.

Yesterday (6th Aug,'10) in CBN-IBM TV channel, Mr. Nilekani, chief guest in the presentation of Innovation awards, took opportunity to explain Aadhaar. He confirmed once again that their mission is to give identity number to everyone. The number can be incorporated in card/ passport/ bank a/c Tax card by respective agencies.  He however mentioned that checking one's identity is his area of work.

However he has not explained how practical it will be in a vast country like ours.
 
With Best wishes,

118 - Sat, 7 Aug 2010

1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 % Correct !

Bibek Kumar Anand
Convener "SAMPADA"

117 -  Sat, 7 Aug 2010

Dear Ram, Your 'obsession' with Aadhar is something we are in full sympathy with - after all it is our money, the nation's money.

Years earlier, the GOI asked for suggestions on how to celebrate the 50th Republic Day - I had suggested one free lunch for all below poverty line nationals of India.  Of course it was logistically impossible - still is.

The GOI simply does not have the mechanism to reach all the poor in the hinterland.  That is why we have starvation deaths and Naxals.

Please keep up the good work!

Sreemay Basu

116 - Fri, 6 Aug 2010

Hi Rambo:

I agree with you - this stupid project has to be stopped.

You brought up an interesting point. Around 80% of the populace is under-educated, ill informed and do not have any idea of the implications of this proposed 'dossier dictatorship'. The rest of the 20% of the nation do not care and I hope that these folks are targeted.

Having an effective illiteracy rate (if you define literacy as a grade 8 education) of 80% plus, is the ultimate trump card for successive autocratic Indian Governments.

If only we had a real literacy rate of 90% plus, with an empowered populace, this stupid project would have not seen the light of day. 

Ved Vedamanikam, IITM
Austin, TX

115 - As CEO of Infosys, I am sure Nandan pulled up every project manager for cost over runs as that would erode the bottom line for the company.

Now as the project Manager for Aadhaar, he gallantly proclaims in his interview that money is not a problem..as the Finance Minister has promised to give him what ever he wants.....he has infact got a blank cheque book from GoI

114 - “This is the biggest ticket game. First you blow the money on schemes such as NAREGA. Then you complain of all irregularities in distributing doles and  "empowering the Aam Admi" Then you go to the "Technologists” (Incidentally no other branch of engineering is Technology now, but IT). Then siphon off the revenue. It is all about money honey! Why on the earth,does one have to conceive a scheme, knowing fully well that Indians do not live only in Bangalore and the public offices in mofussils, get power for less than an hour a day,and more than 95% fellows working with state or local Government have no clue of any thing to do with IT/electronic systems and ultimately our guy would have to rely on this thick and dense group, who to his utter delight would fail and then it is Infosys all the way! QED. I am surprised, rest of our tribe living in SV has not jumped in to serve "the motherland"or this is a cartel? Some one needs to think.”

113 - “Aadhar, is not only a wastage of public funds but is also a complete violation of personal freedom. In a worse case scenario, things like Aadhar are liable to be misused by certain powerful individuals and might lead to translation of India into a complete  Totalitarian state.”

112 - “The system of ration card can be improved, without much ado. It does not require any resource guzzling UID with a number of deeply disturbing / threatening possibilities”

111 -     “For some years now, there have been dangerous trends emerging in the behavior of Indian state. The UID is one of them. Purportedly, to root out corruption and improve delivery of government schemes, every individual in India will be given a Unique Identification card, forcibly if required. At an estimated spend of $35 B, this program looks like a totalitarian's dream come true. Not only is it a gross violation of civil liberties that the state is poking around in your life too much, but its a potential tool for mass control (and transfer of wealth from people to the governments IT stooges). Oh no, don't you think this is paranoia; in UK public concern recently made government cancel such a program. In other countries, such a move would be met with mass protests, but we Indians trust our government a tad too much. This can happen only when technocrats like ManMohan Singh and Nandan Nilekani think that the solution to a social problem is rooted in technology, and not in social changes.”

110 - “I am sure even for the smallest contract at Infosys, some basic cost benefit analysis would have been undertaken, a project team appointed and the entire project analysed.
  
None of these have happened as can be seen from Nandan altering UID to UIN to Aadhaar objectives as he goes along.  At first he proclaimed that UIDAI will issue UID to 1.2 Billion people and the suggestion was that these will be ID Cards (smart cards) . UID was going to be compulsory for all Indians. Now it is optional and makes you wonder what UIDAI’s real objectives are ”

109 - “We have 175000 IITians completely mesmerised and dumbfounded by the fact that one of their own has become a Cabinet Minister even without thinking about nominating to get elected.

    This blind belief that Nandan is CEO of Infosys and surely knows what he is doing is what has silenced the arm chair pundits amongst IITians”

108 - “Saving IIT JEE is a miniscule problem compared to this white elephant called “Aadhaar” which could cost the nation anywhere between US$ 10 to 30 billion)
   
Money that could be used to build state of the art hospitals to serve the disadvantaged or primary schools.
   
We should not give the hungry food to eat, but empower them and teach them to fish for life”

107 - In my view, the entire amount of Rs.45000 crores should be spent on rural development, health primary education and agriculture.
In agriculture, the following areas need monetary support
 New technologies to conserve water like SRI method of rice cultivation should spread to the entire nation.
 Money should be spent on Drip Irrigation facilities.
 Soil Testing and proper application of fertilizers is  another critical area
 User friendly India specific automation of agricultural operations
 Proper Grain storage Facilities and Cold Storage Rooms

106 - “ Centralised control of an entire nation is a wrong concept.”

105 - What will be the infrastructure to ensure its application everywhere?

• Are there going to be lakhs of fingerprint sensors to be maintained at different offices?
• Is there enough manpower to maintain them? What will be the cost?
• In case of failure will conventional method be followed? If such loophole is provided, most of those units will not be working.
• Do we have continuous power supply in rural villages to operate them? We have already seen quite a few AVMs (Voting m/s) which are required to work for just one day in five years during election not working and getting replaced.

104 - “As per current plans, there is no compulsion to have UID No. Issuing UID number will go on for 10 to 15 years. It is likely that it may be made compulsory progressively various departments. Such a vague forecast knocks out the basic need for UID.”

103 - “Instead of looking at the core problem of inadequate food grains and low purchasing power due to lack of economical development, we are draining our resources on this project.” 

102 - “The problems of PDS are quite too many. Some are

1 - Poor agricultural - output resulting in insufficient supply to Ration shops
2 - Inadequate Grain storage facilities affecting procurement
3 - Inadequate dedicated staff to check and monitor  the system
4 - Big Price difference between open market & PDS Price

    Instead of focusing on solving them we are looking at distribution system”

101 - “UID Project as per official web site aims at improving PDS (public distribution system) eliminating corruption, fake ration cards and improving supply chain. It appears to be the only application of UID to help the below poverty line group.

     Nobody has explained how this will be done

100 - “In any Project, the objectives should be clearly spelt out before starting. "Why Aadhaar has been proposed" has not been discussed much. Even Mr. Nilekani said that his job was confined to UID project only and its application was left to others. As days went by, people are fully immersed in UID project, its progress, fund allocation and method of execution. Not many have revisited the objectives or questioned them much. It is just like Sethu Samudram Project whose commercial viability is poor but the public has been diverted to other issues by the government and opposition.”

98 - “I have a great idea, Lalit Modi shoud be put in charge of selling premium Aahaar Numbers in auctions and concealed bids…to the highest bidder”

    “And No1 UIN goes to ............ Dawood..
       Sorry not Sharuk Khan or Amitabh Bachan but Dawood..…”

97 - “It is one thing to manage a major project at Infosys and another to manage a Govt funded project.
Even if the software is created successfully, the UIN or Aadhar will have to be issued by the very corrupt system of Govt and quasi Govt bodies who swallow most govt subsidies. UID to me is a project that Mohammed Bin Tuglak would have started..1900 crores would have gone a long way in helping the needy Indians below poverty lines.”

96 - “Such projects if implemented honestly, which I am sure will be possible because of Nandan heading it will surely a major step towards solving myriad problems our country is facing as on today.
    
Hope that Nandan is not being made scapegoat by the govt for its own agenda of which Nandan might be completely unaware.
   
Such hidden agenda of the congress govt we have experienced at IITD when Delhi CM Ms. Sheela Dixit made us a part of the Bhagidari program but net output of that association was zero.”

95 - “IMHO I believe this is another White Elephant India could do without. Instead of cleaning up the supply chain and eradicating middle men who abuse govt handouts to the needy, the treasury is being emptied to give every Indian a UIN, numbering 1.2 billion approximately. By the time this project sees completion we Indians would have figured out how individuals can get two or three UINs per person and we will have issued crores of Bangladesis and Pakistanis UIN.”

94 - The Difference between FOCUSING on PROBLEMS and FOCUSING on SOLUTIONS

Case # 1 : When NASA began the launch of astronauts into space, they found out that the pens would not work at zero gravity (ink will not flow down to the writing surface).

Solution # 1 : To solve this problem, it took them one decade and $12 million. They developed a pen that worked at zero gravity, upside down, underwater, in practically any surface including crystal and in a temperature range from below freezing to over 300 degrees C.

Solution # 2 : And what did the Russians do...?? They used a pencil.
Aadhaar is a case of COMPLEX and expensive solution to a simple problem

93 - “I too protested about the big waste and the fear of playing into corrupt hands, especially when there are other things to sort out on the way.”

92 - “ At another level, given the fact that most of these 400 million lack literacy, they may find themselves unable to handle this number in a meaningful way and thus face the danger of being virtually stripped of their rights.”

91 - “Nilekani has stated funds are not an issue, as the 13th Financial Commission plans to allot Rs 3,000 crores over the next 5 years. The entire project is estimated to offer over Rs.15,000 crores in terms of opportunity to the IT and hardware industry (for biometric implementation).”

90 - “I think the potential to improve lives as stated will depend on the role of all the agencies / stake holders involved. Unimaginable amounts of money involved – the devil is in the details after all.”

89 - “UID and the new name & is spearheaded by Nandan Nilekani; that it is a techno-governance tool to better manage resources. Some friends also term it techno-racketing

88 - “I am opposed to this scam is that the technology will be misused to create a dossier dictatorship, the precise reason why it was abandoned in the USA, Canada and other democracies. Yes, most Indians and Chinese misuse technology, and they just cannot handle it (not mature enough).”

87 - “The government could just expand the PAN system to cover all people irrespective of whether they pay taxes or not, similar to the SS/SIN cards of US/Canada.   The UID will be (or evolve into) a corrupt scheme, and the original intent will never be fulfilled. Reason: Whatever the Babus and politicians touch, WILL get corrupt.

86 - “The only ones to benefit from the UID are the IT companies and those making the equipment for handling the biometric data. One does not need a UID to make sure that money gets to the poor. The money that is being diverted now will continue to be diverted.  The scheme appears to be a collosal waste of money”

85 - “The biggest nightmare for individuals will be loss of identity, when recovering one's personal identity will be beyond the reach of ordinary people”

84 - “P.Chidambaram has recently made a statement to the effect that privacy is a small price to pay for security, or, that the country cannot afford privacy if security is at stake. This kind of argument is the hallmark of a totalitarian state, not a participatory democracy”

83 - “Do people have a right to decide on UIN ?
          If not why not in a democracy ?   Was there a referrendum ?
          Were people asked if UIN was acceptable ?

82 - “DuPonts Teflon coating was the best technology after sliced bread. A few decades down the track Teflon has been abandoned as it is linked to cancer. Aadhaar is as slippery as Teflon and lead to a cancer the nation can do without”

81 - “ The ultrasound machine that detects the sex of the fetus, is a technology  that has been misused by both India & China to perform selective abortion of female fetuses, a barbaric practice. Aadhaar can be abused too”

80 - “IBM provided the hardware and soft ware to Germany to create a database. Little did the American Multinational know that Hitler’s Nazi regime was going to use IBM expertise to identify all the jews in the country”.

79 - “A system is just a man made system and can operate one way to day and the same system can be modified later to work another way a few years down the track. Nandan is not going to be around for ever to ensure the system is not violated. Nor is Manmohan Singh as PM. NDA Govt may not be in parliament in ten years.What is the guarantee that the UIN that is created in good faith today will not be used against the people by the state tomorrow ?.”

78 - Hackers cracked open Pentagon Computers
Hackers cracked into Australian federal police computers.
Chinese hackers cracked open GoI computers.
How secure is UIDAI computer

77 - “UID is a disaster in the making. Please think this through carefully. Citizens of USA, UK and Australia have blocked similar attempts for decades, as it invades peoples privacy.”

76 - “The Central government has come up with an Orwellian scheme for identifying and cataloguing citizens of the country”

75 - “The ‘Rams, Rahims  and Richards’ of India would be reduced to mere numbers, if this grandiose  scheme goes through.…”

74 - “Does not matter what biometric Nandan decides to use for issuing UIN instead of UID. At the end of the day he has to make use of the existing corrupt government machinery to collect the info, like the Thashildars in country towns. This is where bogus & duplicate numbers or id’s will be issued to people who are willing to pay bribes.
    Nandan’s database will have no chance of detecting bogus applications unless dna is used to identify individuals. Even then to create a dna database that can search a billion entries is a big if treating the entire population as criminals”

73 - “ To me a unique number (UID) is a violation of Privacy. Unique number is no different to a microchip implanted in cats and dogs to identify them when they are lost or stolen.
    Do you and I want to be counted like cats and dogs. ? I don’t think so.”

72 - “Funny thing is, Nandan should start giving this Unique numbers (UID) to our elected politicians in the two houses for starters and then explain to the general public how the unique number can be used along with Right to Information Bill to expose corruption or get hold of Swiss accounts held by politicians. That will Kill this Unique Number (UID) overnight.:-)”

71 - “Mr.Narayana Murthy is the Brain behind Infosys’s Meteoric Success Plus he is a philosopher and philanthropist. Nandan Nilekani at best is a Marketing man mostly interested in the bottom line.
Why was Nandan chosen by our PM one wonders”

70 - “The Unique number (UID) is not what the population wants or has endorsed. Where is the mandate ?
  Why are we being treated like sheep ?

69 - “If some see it as an apple while seeing a productive, transformational alternative project, that may trigger profound changes, as a donkey, we leave it to the jury to look at the merits of the case. Ultimately, we have the nation and government we deserve and wisdom pouring on this matter underlines that with rather dark boldness.”

68 - “ It may be a nice way to offer stimulus to the economy or the IT industry and an opportunity for those looking for a job to pedal their resume. But taking the larger national interest into consideration, at best it is a give away, about Rs 1500 from the pocket of every Indian on an average, to the system’s favorite boys and at worst its printing money and throwing it into fire to keep the house warm in a hot climate.”

67 - “What is wrong about a unique ID is not that it can or cannot be done. No matter how it is done, it will not achieve the intent it is ostensibly being created for. The reasons lie deep beneath our national fabric.”

66 - “Nations are not run by technologies.  They are managed by a social compact. To hope that technologies or any process will change the way a social order works, goes against the grain of any democratic process.”

65 -    “Nandan Nilekani is one of the few qualified to lead the initiative. NN is an equally accomplished individual in his sphere.  However, I have as many questions on his experience of governance as one may have on a politician’s ability to manage a professional organization.”

64 - What would UID do for him? 

Would he be declared non-existing in the  NPR ?

Sat, 7 Aug 2010

Dear Friends,

As I walked down Residency road, Bangalore, this afternoon [7 Aug 2010], I saw this fellow being. 

He has no fingers to enable fingerprinting. Iris scanners would not be available in ration shops.

There are several Lakhs of people like him eking out a living among us, largely un-noticed as people hurry about their daily business or entertainment.

I could not help wondering about our technology guys. Do they ever see such human beings, when they come up with their wonderful ideas of how by spending Lakhs of Crores of Rupees on 

Mathew Thomas
citizens-action-forum

63 -  Sat, 10 Jul 2010
Subject:  - Photo ID Cards for Indian Cattle.

In times past, slaves and cattle were branded with hot iron. Certainly with advances in technology and civilization, governments everywhere would like to "brand" all their people to control them as did the ancient cattle & slave owners. Some slaves liked to remain slaves. This attitude has not changed with time & technology! Hence, the blind support for UID.

citizensactionforum

62 -  Sat, 10 Jul 2010
Subject:  Unique Identification Project budget may be hacked by Naxals

Hi Rambo/Hi Guys:

This is great news, i.e., the finance ministry and the planning commission actually trying to get funds to fulfill other high-priority social legislation like the right to education, the right to food security, and the development of the long-neglected Central Eastern corridor, currently infested with Naxals.

The stupid UID project will die a natural death, like all other white elephants. Nandan Nilekani can now go back to running a Cyber Coolie business (BPO).

The ideal solution to the ID issue is to just expand the PAN card to the entire population, similar to the social security card in the US and SIN card in Canada.

Ved Vedamanikam, IITM
Austin, TX

61 - Tue, 25 May 2010

HI Ram,

I thinking you are living way too far into the future. We are talking about India here, not America or Australia. No matter how well a program is designed and defined, remember it still will be controlled by the Indian babus, who will ensure that most systems are below standard when purchased and work less than 50% of the time at best.

While theoretically Matrix type situation is possible, our system of babus and netas will not allow itself to be replaced by an online parallel system in which they could be the data points as well. Specifically more so with netas, who are temporary, least knowledgeable or skilled and last but not the least, paranoid about their very next neighbor.

So have no fear. Have another cold one and relax. This will not happen in our life time.

Suresh.A IIT Kgp

60 - Thu, 20 May 2010

Hello Rambo,
You have to make up your mind on whether you oppose UID because it will become successful (i.e. India will become a police state), or it will be unsuccessful (because it will be hacked with ease by the Chinese)?

Kalyan, IITM

   

59 - Thu, 20 May 2010 

Consider that to try to remain clean when all around you are not, is a risky business ala Satyendra Dubey.  Ruchira was clean yet Rathore abused the entire political and judicial system to hound her to death and destroyed her family.  And, it was a middle class family (not poor and powerless) - presumably empowered with the usual connections any middle class family has in India.  His having access to the her UID data would have made it more or less difficult?

May I refer you all to the famous statement of Schumacher ('Small is Beautiful') - something to the effect: "no government initiatives can help the really poor as all such benefits are usurped by the rich and powerful".

Like the nukes - what are the safeguards?  I am sure all of you have seen the old Sandra Bullock movie - The Net  ;) 

Best,
Sreemay Basu, IIT

58 -  Wed, 19 May 2010

Hi Rajaram / Rambo:

I have to go with you guys on this.

As I indicated earlier, the government could just expand the PAN system to cover all people irrespective of whether they pay taxes or not, similar to the SS/SIN cards of US/Canada.

The UID will be (or evolve into) a corrupt scheme, and the original intent will never be fulfilled. Reason: Whatever the Babus and politicians touch, WILL get corrupt.

Another reason I am opposed to this scam is that the technology will be misused to create a dossier dictatorship, the precise reason why it was abandoned in the USA, Canada and other democracies. Yes, most Indians and Chinese misuse techology, and they just cannot handle it (not mature enough). Example: the ultrasound machine that detects the sex of the fetus has been misused by both 'great civilizations' to perform selective abortion of female fetuses, a barbaric practice.

If the cost figures you quote are real, it will be a criminal waste of scarce resources. These funds could be used to improve the Maoist-infested regions of India that have been criminally neglected over the decades. Reason: Tribals and lower caste folks live there!

Ved Vedamanikam, IITM
Austin, TX

57 - Wed, 19 May 2010

Hi Rajaram: I respect your position on this subject, which means we will agree to disagree on this topic at this time based on the limited information I have on the subject.

My question to you is the only purpose of the UID is to achieve diversion of funds to poor? If that were true then I am in complete agreement with you that it would then be a waste of taxpayers money. My understanding is that UID will have many uses some we all can agree and other uses we may disagree and yet some other uses that we may have no opinion on or do not even care. In the final analysis, the total cost benefit of all the potential uses of UID needs to be evaluated against the total costs to really make a statement as to if it is a waste of taxpayers money or not. Some of the costs and benefits may not be in financial terms, but of the greater good, national security etc. I do not have the answers to this, thus am not in a position to make a fully informed  judgement on it at this time. Perhaps you do being much closer to the issue and more informed than i am.

I will continue to get educated on it and wait until I have all the relevant information on the subject to change my current position. Thank you for sharing your opinion on the subject.

Joshy, IITM

56 - Wed, 19 May 2010

I agree with Ram on this.  The only ones to benefit from the UID are the IT companies and those making the equipment for handling the biometric data.  One does not need a UID to make sure that money gets to the poor.  The money that is being diverted now will continue to be diverted.  The scheme appears to be a collosal waste of money.

Rajaram Bhat, IITM

55 -  Tue, 18 May 2010

Hi Guys, I hope u don't mind my butting in & giving my comments (marked below in italics, red font). The topic is live one & I am tempted ! Just cant resist, you see !!


Lets just remind ourselves that this is the market segment that is driving the current telecom, white consumer goods & automobiles boom in India. Illiterate, may be but definitely smarter generations who are well informed. They are much more aware of how the political parties siphoned off monies in the name of so many well intended schemes.

One of Our late ex-prime minister (Mr. Rajiv Gandhi) had arranged for  one survey conducted,  some time in mid-eighties, exactly on this topic. Results were,  of course, shocking !! As per this survey mere 8-10% of the amount spent reached the  intended sections of the population !! Those were the days when babudom with the political parties in power combined together to defeat the implementation of such schemes.

Yes, what you are saying is that Mr. Nilekani had this grand vision & thru his book he has reached out to all of  the intellectuals including the PM. Let us concede it - It is a really grand , mega vision. Mr. Nilekani has not only given the idea (or the design) but also volunteered to execute the project himself. 
The IT guys have done so much for the development of the country in the last 2/3 decades nothing is impossible !! This is mere cake walk for our IT guys.
The nearest parallel is with one Mr. Sam Pitroda convincing RG of unleashing the telecom sector in the mid eighties & we are all aware of what it has achieved !!

We are all Engineers &  all very well aware that the project definition & scope undergoes major mid-course changes & the end result is most of the time way beyond our initial & original visualisation. It will be more so in such social projects as 'UID'.

Perhaps, you are right here about MNC's. But again the major beneficiaries are & will be Indian software & hardware companies with or without overseas partners.

By the way guys, there is already ATMs in villages (my guess is every 1 in 3 or 4 villages has at least 1 ATM) & post offices network can be made good use of for the purpose.  Post office network also is changing (most of these changes are forced on them because of survival ) & will be too happy to get involved in the party. Likewise, rural banking networks can also be made good use of for the purpose.

Dear Sir, times have changed back home in India !! you will be surprised (as I was during one of my visits to Chennai & Bangalore) how you can hear (reasonably) good Hindi being spoken in the offices, markets & hotels; good north Indian food of your choice; Hindi, Gujaraty, Marathi & Punjabi TV channels registering reasonable viewership pn Chennai, B'lore or for that matter in Kochi.




Best Rgds,

V N Markande, IITB

54 - Sun, 11 Jul 2010

Dear Ram, It is true that hardly a minuscule minority has any idea of what Aadhaar is all about.

The Govt and the UIDAI have deliberately kept it this way. Both have been dishonest about their real intentions.

Media and middle class have been taken in by the personality of the UIDAI chairperson. Business finds it attractive. You would always find ET place news about UID in the "Emerging business & IT" page. Politicians have different ideas, mostly born out of ignorance.

The question here, as in many other issues, is what does civil society do to overcome public apathy?
I think our campaigns are addressing this in some small way. We need to do a lot more.

Regards,

Mathew Thomas

53 - Fri, 7 May 2010   

I think that the idea of UID is excellent and was long overdue. I have at least 11 IDs and do not know which one will foot the bill when I go for some job. It is but natural that some disgruntled elements are there and that should be there for every progressive project, to keep checks and to ensure that these new and hyped projects do not go the way others have gone.

R.Chandrasekhar, IITM

52 -  Wed, 5 May 2010

For everything, there is a reason.

It was Jaswant Singh of BJP in NDA govt, who made it compulsory to have a PAN card along with photos and proof of residence to open a bank account. Over the years, the Bank have been sending reminders to the already existing account holders to submit the details of their respective PAN cards. The process is continued even today, though more than 90% account holders have said to have met this requirement.

The next step initiated under that govt was to make SEBI [Securities and Exchange Board of India] to lay down the requirement of PAN card details for those trading in the stock markets. Then it was extended for, what was known as a 'MAPIN' card essential for all the brokers-subBrokers and also for those trading in the speculative market.

This PAN card was available at few specified broker offices, where one was required to be present to get a photo using the cam of the PC, along with signature and also the impressions of both thumbs and both forefingers. This way, the individual was biologically identified.

The reason was to minimise the 'Benami' activities carried out by some operators.

Just then the NDA govt was replaced by the UPA govt and the requirement of MAPIN card was scrapped, bring in only the PAN card requirement for all deals in the stock markets.

However, the UPA govt was later required to extend this norm to the Mutual Funds and IPO applications.

These all proceeding point at a major fact. Whichever govt exists, sensibly they all wish to move in the same direction, but are afraid of loosing the vote bank, and hence are taking steps in the pace of a snail.

The reason for UID is likewise. Possibly, that is the reason, why the census activities have started, which may be linked to the UID database.

I understand that UID is only for biological identification, and shall have the photo and the finger expressions, but not the address and/or religion and cast.

Even if this all is done and the UID cards are available with individuals, I doubt whether the govt machinery has infrastructure to and ability to check for duplication and weed it out with strong punishments, because the only guys who would be doing these acts shall be the front line politicians themselves.

Long ago, Mrs Indira Gandhi, had allowed her car to be parked illegally, and even after knowing that it was the PM's car that Kiran Bedi had guts to tow it off.  As an award, Kiran Bedi was transferred to Goa within 24 hours.

But Indira Gandhi understood politics and in a way, came up from the ranks. Many of today's politicians have got the positions as a gift, even if they had no specific background. So, their reactions are worst.

And yet, some of them are trying to go for UID. I wish them luck. How and when this work shall be completed and also how and when the cards are used [if issued] is a Trillion Rupees question.

Mangesh, IITM

51 - Wed, 05 May 2010

How soon we forget. Our entire identity as IITians was based on our roll number, a UID that still carries over.

During the world war, captured soldiers were told to provide only their name, rank and serial number and divulge no other information

We have the driver's license number, social security number (or its national equivalents in other countries), the health card number and god know what else. When was the last time, your name alone was enough for your identification?

When you cross the border, what does the border security/immigration official check?
Your passport with a number associated with it.

One can go on.

Not that I am enamoured with all this. I think we are becoming more and more regimented, and stratified with respect to our identity.

There is probably hope, in the most unlikely place, technology. By the time, the government has completed the UID scheme, it may become obsoleted by another identification system.

1.174/64

Kalyan, IITM

50 - Tue, 4 May 2010

Hi Rambo,  I had the same thought , why should we always oppose everything that the Govt proposes when it is accepted the world over. I disagree with you but you are free to maintain yours.

I believe that at the end of it all some benefits will accrue as much as PAN and other numbers have helped. At least I think we can now trace our IT returns and may be UID will also have enough benefits.

Regards

Anantaraman , IITM

49 - Tue, 4 May 2010

Hi Rambo: Thank you for providing the background and what this request is all about. While there may be some misuse of the system (as in any system used for ID), I believe as India moves towards becoming a Developed nation (which I believe will occur in our lifetime), our citizens should have some form of an ID such as in other Developed Nations (SIN, SSN in US & Canada) that will provide unique Identity to Indian Citizens. I am sure that Australia has some form of Unique ID for each of its citizens.

I know that India  has a lot of problems in the area of corruption and other injustices metered out to its citizens by the privileged, religious,  Government and corrupt officials. These are challenges we all (Indian citizens in India and expats) have to face and slowly and systematically but surely try to eradicate by our involvement and persistence in making India the best we can and envy of rest of the world. I am confident that as India continues to become more prosperous, the level of corruption etc will tend to reduce as workers will find legitimate ways to support their family. As this materializes, then the corruption/injustices will tend to move to higher levels (such as we see in the USA & Europe with stock market/accounting  frauds etc) and thus may minimize the impact on the average person.

Therefore, while acknowledging your logical and valid concerns on this subject, I must vote with my conscience that the Universal ID (UID) is most likely to result in overall long term benefit for the citizens of India in the years to come.  I have great faith in India to  succeed and return to its old glory. A few road blocks that may be present at this time and in my humble opinion, this temporary set back should not be considered as the reason for its (the issuance of UID) rejection at this time.

My friend, this is another issue where we will agree to disagree and respect each other's views on the subject and continue to remain good friends.

Joshy K, IITM

48 -  Tue, 4 May 2010

Ram, There are many positive applns of the UID.
As always – good-bad intent, and high-low quality of implementation will determine use/waste/abuse,
Guess we’ll get a bit of all this

Deepak Mirza IITD

47 - Tue, 4 May 2010

Ram, We, people, who are sitting in India, do see the change, change for the better, albeit slow.  

Not going ahead with UID because it will be misused and corrupt people will make money is not reason enough not to do it.  Now we have liquor ban in Gujarath.  It is to prevent poor people drinking and ruining their families.  Now, they say this is ineffective, because the trade goes underground;  you get it anyway by paying more, illegally.  But how much?  10%?  The remaining 90% are saved.  So is the case of corruption etc.;  may be 10% or may be 20%.  But large majority still obey the rules.  And even the rule breakers, are progressively exposed, by a vigilant media, by internet etc.

So, I am not that pessimistic.

Love
Ranga, IITM

46 -  Tue, 4 May 2010

IMHO, even if this proposed card is properly used to identify every farmer taking the loans from whatever sources, and is reimbursed through the same sources when the loans are waived by the union and/or state govt, the farmer's suicides could be avoided, which may be the single reason enough to go for it.

Then why do we all need it ?
Simple.... the guys in govt machinery and outside who cheat the farmers, leading them to suicides, are not farmers themselves. Hence all non-farmers must also get a unique numbered card.

However.........................!

Having said all this, I also know that the laws prevailing in this country are the best laws, but their governance and application by the concerned machinery is the worst.

So, even after having such cards, everything may still be 'Ram Bharose'

Mangesh IITM

45 - Tue, 4 May 2010

Rambo,  Your concerns regarding violation of privacy, officers misusing etc. are quite well founded. 
I do not know the cost implication of ‘no card, biometric use’. 
Will issuance of a card be cheaper, as is done in Singapore ?

 But still, please do not underestimate the larger benefits:
1.      To help govt. focus its subsidies
2.      To prevent migration in thousands from Bangladesh, and which will be a menace in future years.

Ranga. IITM

44 - Mon, 26 Jul 2010 

In fact, in India we are stuck with our identity that associates us so much to our past, our family, our caste, our village, what not, that many a times people find their identity comes in the way of their development.

The argument that UID makes to justify it is that people have trouble proving their identity. It makes it sound as if govt. officials want to give people aid but they dont know whom to give the aid to. This too me sounds very untrue, and no numbers are given to justify this.

The reality could be different --- the middle men want to grab the aid and they just use lack of  identity
as an excuse. The situation is thus not going to change with thousand such Aadhar programs unless we catch the corrupt and penalize them. But then, we might find that biggies are involved in this, and taking this to the logical conclusion would mean that Manmohan might have to choose between fighting corruption and being in power. From the past, we all know what choice he made when he had to choose between the two above.

Thus without political will, this Aadhar is going to be just one more tamasha.

regards,
Samir Kelekar, IITB

43 - Sat, 24 Jul 2010   

Ashok's Kalbags defence of UID starts in a typical fashion saying "Let us begin by the premise that an identity is required for an individual in present society. The entire further discussion would be pointless, if this itself is not in agreement."

He does not want to go into the objective of creating new identity, particularly in view of various other priority areas in India demanding fund allocation  and assumes UID is essential.

Every one in India has identity, but probably known to the limited local circle of people. Should we undertake a costly exercise just to get everyone's  identity known throughout the country at exorbitant cost?

Prioritization of funds and manpower resources should be done in order to improve the welfare of the nation and not to meet the comfort needs of the  microscopic segment of society having good standard of life. If it really helps, let us have UID only for those in Income tax paying group and their families. It will cut down the cost of the project considerably.

Those justifying UID, with possible elimination of  malpractices or leakages  in PDS, NREGS etc do not know the real mechanism operating at the ground level in rural areas. Money will be collected by corrupt middlemen whether it is payment in cash  or through bank. What we require is monitoring and executive action and not imposition of another costly system.

As UID itself is not considered essential now, why should one think of alternatives. There is only the need to think of alternate areas where the fund can be reallocated to improve the welfare of the nation.

A.S. IITM

42 - Thu, 22 Jul 2010 

Biometry based UID is less prone to tampering and hence a better identification
'Giving money to poor' is one possible application where it can be used but that is not the purpose of UID per se

While 'black hat' criticism of UID is not a problem it is equally important to think of ideas where UID can be put to better use

One such application where we can utilize UIDs is to plan effective and well directed skills training programs based on individual aptitudes. It is an idea that we could apply to PanIIT's 'IITians for ITIs' program. You may be aware that India expects to train 500 million people in different skills by 2020. Anyone interested is welcome to get in touch
Cheers,

Ranjan Kumar, IIT

41 - Thu, 22 Jul 2010

Suresh, Very well put.

Two points:

1.   PAN is not for everybody and lots of duplicate PANs are floating around.

2.   In furtherance to your last paragraph, I wonder why there is so much thrust to give money to poor, give them work and equip them with the education system and help them become decisive but the government and the perpetual perpetrators of crime and corruption in this country do not want that. The nexus of bureaucrats, industrialists, politicians and religious leaders is so deep and sound that poor will remain poor and this nexus wants them to remain poor. Of course, these poor are poor NOT BY SPIRIT and just by wealth. Very rightly you have pointed out what will they do with the money. They don’t need your money, they need freedom in its true sense. The rulers and riches love to have poor around, after all they do need poor for them to realize their richness. It’s a big conspiracy. These poor are perfect business for all the above four. You and I keep shouting, nothing will change, they went ahead with reservation in IITs, they went ahead with founding more IITs, they went ahead with enacting the worst ever law on primary education, they will go ahead with foreign education bill, they went ahead with wasting 15 billion dollars on a lousy arrangement for Common Wealth Games and they will go ahead with Nuclear Liability Bill. These perpetrators got to be lynched in day light. Talks won’t do. What a pathetic performance by SM Krishna, ashamed the whole nation but who has the guts to speak or the time to speak. Unless you don’t change the concept of the governance, unless people don’t take politics as a career and come to power, unless reservation doesn’t go off this nation, unless poor are treated as equals and NOT given money but jobs, education and respect, nothing will change. In the present circumstances, UID is just a wastage of public money and will serve no purpose whatsoever. We are a country of dishonest and dishonesty has been imposed on us by the rulers. We as a country are not equipped to handle something like UID.

Regards
Somnath Bharti, Advocate
Formerly Member, Senate, IIT Delhi
Formerly Secretary, IIT Delhi Alumni Association

40 -  Thu, 22 Jul 2010

I am quite a layman when it comes to these issues. My brain works in very simple ways.

I do not yet understand the nity gritty of how UID is expected to be implemented or work. So i have a very fundamental question.

We already have the concept of PAN cards for individuals. I presume the numbering system is unique across the country. Why are we not trying to implement this in a proper way instead of coming up with a totally new concept called UID? As far as I know, my PAN, bank account number, driver's license, etc are all unique and cannot be duplicated (yes they can be forged, but not duplicated). So any of them could be used as UID instead of spending immense money and time to create  a new number.

So why not extend the PAN card facility to the entire nation and streamline the process of getting it? We really should forget the concept of biometrics as a solution for an entire nation. At best it could be localized at the district level. It is just not practical for daily use purposes on such large scale. This will of course leave some loopholes that can be exploited. So the focus should be on closing those loopholes and updating the laws so that any misuse would attract severe punishment and also expedite the legal process through special courts meant for these cases only. If the government is saying that a system that has been implemented for many years cannot be streamlined, do we want to trust the same government with a new concept?

To sum it up, technology cannot solve our nation's problems. It has to be a change in the society and mind set of people that will take our nation forward and help alleviate the problems of the poor. Most poor that are currently being helped are getting the help from people with the right intentions. Some of the most flourishing villages are absolutely non-reliant on any sort of technology and succeed with the notion of cooperative societies.

Governance has failed in all aspects in our country. So how do we believe that simply a new concept will solve the problems of the poor? And that too futuristic?

Even if I want to put on rose colored glasses to look at a an optimistic outcome, here is my question. Assuming that UID works, and the money gets into the bank account of the deserving, does it guarantee that it will benefit them? Most likely they will be robbed (figuratively and literally) as they step out of the bank by the same group of people that keep them pinned down now. My bet is that every rural branch of a bank will have an attached liquor shop with "accounts" in both tied up. So most likely the poor will never see the "money" that they received. It will just "flow" as it does now. And let us not even talk about other commodities and services, which cannot be "transferred" or managed online. The poor will continue to be short changed as they are now.

Putting aside all the technical issues, could someone convince me this will not happen?

Cheers
Suresh Adina, IIT Kgp

39 - Thu, 22 Jul 2010
Is there a functioning Govt at the Centre for the benefit of the ordinary man?

We get news daily only about scamsters, looters, money launderers, rapists and fighting ministers from Delhi?

Sekar, IITM

38 -  Thu, 22 Jul 2010

Just one comment on the 5th and 6th para of Ram Krishnaswany's mail, who is firing on all guns against Aadhar. :-)

As per UIDAI website (http://www.uidai.gov.in ), you cannot queue up as Ram Samuels and Ramattulah to get new UID's for yourself, as the inbuilt biometric validation system in the database would reject the new record, because on old record is already present for Ram Krishnaswamy. 
There is no need of a separate deduplication exercise. Please go through FAQ's on the website.
It's all available in the public domain.

Best,
-Piyush Peshwani, IIT

37 - Thu, 22 Jul 2010   

Ram,
It is unfair you making a statement "Ashok Kalbag, Secretary PanIIT Alumni association of India is the voice of UIDAI & Nandan". Just as you have a right to voice your opinion, presumably you will grant me the same, instead of trying to couch it as a "voice" as the "Secretary General of PanIIT Alumni India". I would appreciate you acknowledging my individual opinion as any other member of this group is presumably permitted.

If any meaningful debate is to be had and some fruitful conclusions are to be drawn, it can be feasible only if both sides of the issues are projected and discussed.

Assuming the purpose of this group is to arrive at meaningful alternative to the solutions suggested, let me proceed.

Let us begin by the premise that an identity is required for an individual in present society. 
The entire further discussion would be pointless, if this itself is not in agreement.

Assuming an identity is required, would it be incorrect to assume it should be
1) Unique
2) Not feasible to duplicate
3) feasible to be provided to individuals who are poor and not able to afford or have any other presently known means of establishing identity (ration card, passport, PAN, etc).

3.1 The enrolement process (pp# 14 of Strategy Overview)
The enrolment process for the UID number will begin with a resident submitting his/her information to the enrolling agency with supporting documents. This information will be verified according to the prescribed verification procedure as per the DDSVP Committee Report. To make sure the poor are not excluded, the UIDAI has prescribed guidelines for applicants without documents.

Once the enroller verifies the resident's information, it will submit the application request – either
singly or in batches – through the Registrar to the CIDR. The CIDR will then run a de-duplication
check, comparing the resident's biometric and demographic information to the records in the
database to ensure that the resident is not already enrolled.

Since de-duplication also compares biometric records, it would catch individuals enrolling with a
different set of demographic details. The fact that the UID system is both de-duplicated and
universal will discourage residents from giving incorrect data at the time of enrolment.

The above will hopefully answer the doubt "To challenge the Aadhaar system I can queue up in different states at different times and register myself as Ram Krishnamurthy, Ram Krishnamachari what ever, even as Ram Samuel, Ramatullah. Now  I have created multiple identities for myself that I can use to get rice at Rs 3 a kilo. I am clever enough to act dumb and stupid or even mentally retarded and con the registrars into believing I am poor and do not know my fathers name or mothers name and at my age do not remember my DOB."

Today, as one understands it, the major problem in the leakages in the welfare conduit is the lack of facility to ensure the beneficiary will get the benefits earmarked and disbursed by the government. This does not resolve the problem or debate about NREGA itself being a good or effective scheme. Issues such as, people on the dole are de-motivated to earn a living, would continue, though no one denies a person should go hungry for want of opportunity to earn a living.

One feasibility is for a poor person to open a no frills bank account (which is not feasible today without some documentation) but on the strength of his Aadhar #, would permit transfer of funds to his account directly, without any middle men or agencies which could provide sources of leakages. The methodology for transfer could be debated and alternatives could be worked out, once the beneficiary is clearly identified.

These and similar other issues could be raised and debated, without casting aspersions.

A Q&A session during the PanIIT 2010 event would become meaningful, if properly organised. I would venture a suggestion that Ram & Somnath (with some others, as required) could collate and prepare a list of questions from all and then have them answered in an open session by Nandan. This would permit more ground to be covered and less time wasted with long winded questions or repeats.

We as a group interested in Nation Building, should attempt and come with alternatives which may be debated and refined to help solve the issues facing us as a nation.

Regards
Ashok Kalbag, IITB

36 -  Thu, 22 Jul 2010

Just mentioning a small incident I had few days back to demonstrate how "IT literate" our Govt. babus are. I was travelling from Delhi to home town in Sriganganagar Rajasthan 2 weeks back. I had booked an e-ticket on IRCTC site but could not take a printout, thanks to the Nation Bandh that day. So i thought that I will just go without the ticket print out because I was liable for a Rs 50 penalty in case I didn't carry the e-ticket print.When I reached to the train, the TTE didn't allow me to board the train saying there is no such rule.He didn't even know that you could book a ticket online! I tried convincing him, failed. I went to the station master and he sent a fellow to explain to the TTE but he failed. Finally the Dy. Station Master walked all the way with me to ask this guy to allow me to board the train.

Finally I boarded, but this incident clearly shows how well versed our govt. employees are with the IT system and you really expect them to manage a Rs 45000 Crore project based on sophisticated biometrics and IT databases and what not?

Few more points:

We all know the simple Voter ID card program was a miserable failure. Despite repeated attempts, my name is mentioned wrong on my ID card!

- You can easily get a fake ration card for few bucks

If you really want an accurate ID in India, you need to put in place the controls similar to process of obtaining a passport, which would be even more expensive and impractical. Even then it is not 100% foolproof.

Even if we assume that the ID numbers are in place, how exactly do we plan to improve PDS (public distribution system) using ID numbers alone.

Are we expecting all the finger print scanners etc to be in place in all the cities and villages? Is it practical given that we could not implement much simpler Voter ID card project?

The leakage in PDS happens because people don't know what their entitlements are and how much grains they should get. So the distributors get their thumb impressions on false quantities. Not sure how UID will address this issue.

Same with Nation rural emp. guarantee scheme. Biggest issue is not lack of IDs (we on an average have more than one ID per type per person in India :D) but the illeteracy and the lack of awareness about entitlements.

The UID is liable to be used in more than one unintended ways. It can act as tool in the hands of few powerful individuals to use the numbers to their benefits commercially and politically.

Regards,
Gajendra Sidana, IITM

35 - Wed, 21 Jul 2010

Ram,

My friend A. B (included in CC) is an IITM alumunus, Class of 2006 from Naval Arch  He is also a staunch liberalist and deeply believes in personal freedom and hence he also hates the concept of Aadhar, which is not only a wastage of public funds but is also a complete violation of personal freedom. In a worse case scenario, things like Aadhar are liable to be misused by certain powerful individuals and might lead to translation of India into a complete Totalitarian state.

As a next step, I would like to understand what all options do we have in our hands as I am sure discussing it in our groups is not good enough.

I assume most of the IITians would anyway have a vision big enough to see the pitfalls in the concept of Aadhar and would agree with what we are saying.

Regards,
Gajendra Sidana, IITM

34 -  Tue, 20 Jul 2010

Please find below a nice blog by my friend  on Aadhar and I completely agree with him on this.
A Red Herring and a Leash

Best Regards,
Gajendra Sidana, IITM

33 - Mon, 19 Jul 2010

Hi again Ram,

I agree with you that I have repeated Nilekani's arguments in favour of Aadhar as I have listened to him speak at the Bangalore Club. However I do believe that he has the interests of India at large and is definitely not a chaddiwala.

Also I really appreciate your real concerns on the security of the whole sytem and these concerns have to be addressed.

My real concern is how to give our really poor  ( more that 60% ) of our population an indentity so that they  can even begin to move forward. This problem really needs to be addressed.
Keep in touch and do continue with your good work .

Cheers!
Chanak, IITM

32 - Fri, 16 Jul 2010

Cannot understand why all this fuss about the Aadhar program which if not sabotaged will be of enormous benefit to the really poor in India . Please check out the following article in Economic Times
which may give you answers to some of your questions. The project is mainly to facilitate everyone resident in India to  have  an identity for life . It is not going  to substitute a passport, pan card or driver's license or other existing id schemes, which incidentally the majority of Indians do not have.

More than 60% of Indians in India have no identity that can be verified. This means they cannot have bank accounts, own property, or even receive the subsidies and relief projects that are meant for them causing huge leakages and ripoffs in the system. If individuals in this large population have a unique number which will identify them uniquely, they can prove that they are who they say they are and then be eligible to enter the organised economy which is now closed to them. This at least will be a starting point.

 Also since their biometric data will be housed in a central server they don't have to worry about losing their card as long as they have their number as  with their number they can always be authenticated anywhere with just their number and their biometric details (10 finger prints and 2 irises) . Of course there will be adequate safegaurds for those with less than 10 fingers and 2 irises ( or even if they have more that 10 fingers and 2 irises! ) . The only information on the file will be the name of the person,sex ,  parent(name ) date of birth and address, and the biometrics. No other information. So one can always change their, name, sex and address but these changes will be made only after authentication using the biometric data which will be unique to that person. ( Why al 10 fingers ....because today you can get different ids in different names using different fingers )

Of course there may be loopholes which will be plugged as the scheme  progresses but it will be a lot better than the id card system we have now where  some individuals have in region of 1000 pan numbers and hence 1000 or  so spurious identities and  even fake voter ids .

The scheme is not going to be compulsory and hence no one is going to be forced to get a Aadhar number . It is going to be voluntary. But for those who do not and cannot get  identification papers today will volunteer in very large numbers just to obtain an identity which will get them into the organised economy. Soon everyone will see the benefit and the need for the UID will snowball.

Most bureaucrats and politicians in India are very much against this scheme and will continue to try to wreck it because it will it very difficult for them to keep ripping off the country as they have been doing so far by stealing from welfare schemes and using bogus votes and voters. I for one am optimistic and sincerely hope this  works well.

Chanak, IITM

31 - Wed, 14 Jul 2010

This looks one-sided. You have captured the costs associated with UID, but did not attempt to look at direct / indirect benefits for years to come.
-Piyush, Batch of '99. IIT-B.

Thu, 15 Jul 2010   

Piyush,
great. I agree. However I cannot help as I have no info to base this on. UIDAI to this date has not provided a cost benefit analysis. Perhaps you can help put a value on the benefits so we get a clear picture of costs Vs benefits

Ram

Thu, 15 Jul 2010   

Ram,  It's certainly not easy to put a value on benefits. While costs are reflective of the real numbers (atleast of the same order), benefits will be vague estimates only, since all of them are indirect benefits.

If UIDAI publishes a benefits calculation, they will only end up inviting trouble from multiple corners. Because when it comes to indirect benefits, people tend to get too opinionated and they have lots of ground to refute numbers.

So my guess is that NN and FinMin have done a CBA, before it all started, but it is not publishable.
Maybe if we continue discussing, we will reach a point where we will share with the group our respective take on benefits.

Best,
-Piyush
Batch of '99. IIT-B.

30 -  Wed, 14 Jul 2010

Ram,

Regarding currency tracking -- it is different from tracking people. Already every credit / debit card transaction is tracked. In a corrupt society like India, what is wrong in tracking currency?

Regarding Aadhaar -- I don't know if there are flaws in its implementation, but as of now I do not see a flaw in its fundamental principle, which is that if a person expects govt subsidies or other rights, he should be willing to be positively identified for that (without compromising his identity otherwise).

Regarding software flaws: already we have operational national databases even in India, such as the railway reservation system, internet banking, etc. Regarding collaboration with LIC and SBI: that may be to provide people who are currently outside the system with bank accounts and life insurance policies, I am not sure. But, reading the document on the Aadhaar website gives me the confidence that they have thought through things carefully.

I would suggest splitting the debate into two components:
(i) is the fundamental principle behind Aadhaar valid?
(ii) if so, are there flaws in the implementation?

If the latter is the case, this is an opportunity for the large IIT community to help in the design of Aadhaar, perhaps akin to the open-source movement. This is an opportunity for technology and technologists to tackle corruption from their home turf.

- Anonymous - Name with held on request

29 - Thu, 15 Jul 2010

I agree. I tweeted yesterday to ask about Aadhar and recd similar replies. People are clueless about its cost or if they know it per person can't extrapolate it. I believe we must show examples of what could happen to people like us. Only that will wake people. point out how PAN , passport and tax databases are so weak even today!

SD

28 - Wed, 14 Jul 2010

1) Fingerprints can be faked and finger print readers fooled.
2) Big pilferage of ration doesnt take place by people with fake ration cards taking ration
one at a time. It takes place via an accounting fraud where in huge mass of ration is stolen, via rigged up weight measures, via mxing of ration with other stuff and via zombie accounts.

Given that fingetrprints and even iris images can be faked, one can always create zombie accounts and the problem will not go away. What will happen however is that there will be one more hurdle for genuine ration beneficiaries before they get ration, one more place where corruption will take place.

The ration shop owner will take a cut because he can always say that fingerprint scanner is not working, it is not approving, blah blah blah, and charge his pound of flesh.

One needs to see the way Chattisgarh has tried to fix the problem with PDS before thinking up such a costly solution without as much as an elementary due diligence and feasibility study.

samir

27 - Wed, 21 Jul 2010
Subject:  IIT Global Current Affairs  Need for review of Aadhaar

Ram
This is the biggest ticket game. First you blow the money on schemes such as NAREGA. Then you complain of all irregularities in distributing doles and  "empowering the Aam Admi" Then you go to the "Technologists"(Incidentally no other branch of engineering is Technology now, but IT ) Then siphon off the revenue. It is all about money honey! Why on the earth, does one have to conceive of a scheme, knowing fully well that Indians do not live only in Bangalore and the public offices in mofussils, get power for less than an hour a day,and more than 95% fellows working with state or local Government have no clue of any thing to do with IT/electronic systems and ultimately our guy would have to rely on this thick and dense group, who to his utter delight would fail and then it is Infosys all the way! QED I am surprised, rest of our tribe living in SV has not jumped in to serve "the motherland"or this is a cartel?
Some one needs to think.

PRS, IITK

26 - Wed, 21 Jul 2010


Here is a news item.

It shows how the system of ration card can be improved, without much ado. It does not require any resource guzzling UID with a number of deeply disturbing / threatening possibilities.

Sukla Sen

25 - 7th June 2010

For some years now, there have been dangerous trends emerging in the behavior of Indian state. The UID is one of them. Purportedly, to root out corruption and improve delivery of government schemes, every individual in India will be given a Unique Identification card, forcibly if required. At an estimated spend of $35 B, this program looks like a totalitarian's dream come true. Not only is it a gross violation of civil liberties that the state is poking around in your life too much, but its a potential tool for mass control (and transfer of wealth from people to the governments IT stooges). Oh no, don't you think this is paranoia; in UK public concern recently made government cancel such a program. In other countries, such a move would be met with mass protests, but we Indians trust our government a tad too much. This can happen only when technocrats like ManMohan Singh and Nandan Nilekani think that the solution to a social problem is rooted in technology, and not in social changes.

What is needed is more liberty, land reforms, lesser power to babus and decentralisation. I always thought that the Indian state was somewhere between active benevolence and passive malevolence. Not so sure about that anymore. But one thing I'm certain of; changing an age old way of life forcibly in the name of development is not progress, regardless of what GDP says.

P.S. I would direct anyone who is interested in knowing about how central planning is detrimental to personal liberty to read F.A.Hayek's seminal piece 'The Road to Serfdom'

Posted by Rider on the Storm

24 - Mon, 17 May 2010   

Initially, I was skeptical of the opposition to this UID, but I'm  beginning to agree with Rambo that this might be  a disaster. I  thought this was nothing more than the equivalent of the Social  Security Number in the US, but if they're collecting fingerprints and  other biometrics, then the privacy implications are troubling.

I can  see the Government's side of it too .. in a country with a vast  illiterate and transient population (tribals / slumdwellers etc.,) it  is hard to keep track of people without biometrics.

I think the opponents of this are not doing a very good job explaining the implications of such a UID. They need to put these in simpler  terms, so that the average person understands what is being done in 
the name of security. Perhaps make a movie of a hero who's falsely persecuted because his rival got a job in a government office and  switched his fingerprints in the database. Or for that matter, a  terrorist hacks into the government database and becomes invisible to  the police, who're instead chasing the mentally retarded anti-hero  hero .. Or a evil local politician who gets the fingerprints off  ballots, figures out who voted against him and begins a vendetta ..

- Sreenadh, IITM

23 - Tue, 11 May 2010

My understanding of the apprehensions of alumni like Ram are not because of the UID program per se but they are because of the possible misuses of the stored information on individuals by the politicians for their political reasons and divide and rule policies.

There are no dearth of mechanisms in this country but their implementation has always been the issue.

UID does seem to be the answer of various problems of this country provided it is implemented in letter and spirit of the concepts/reasons this project has been designed/planned for.

Crooked politicians are and will remain the bane for this country and Ram’s apprehensions does hold water to the extent of the possible misuses by the politicians of this beneficial program.

Regards,
Somnath Bharti, IITD

22 - Sat, 8 May 2010

Yes, one could only wish that the whole issue had been better debated.

One way to realize the danger in a venture is when people promote an idea without discussing the down sides. An honest appraisal of an idea will discuss the 'pros' along with the 'cons', along with a discussion on how the cons will be neutralized.

For instance let us assume that the prime intention of this scheme is to reduce infiltration from neighboring countries. Well, you catch a person without UIN, will you be able to repatriate this individual?

Regards,
Selvaraj, IITM

21 - Fri, 7 May 2010

Those of us espousing technology must be aware how it is likely to be used by a self-serving class of politicians, a very significant percentage of whom are criminals.

Remember the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.


Sreemay Basu, IIT Kgp

20 - 11 Jul 2010

Hi Ram

I apologise if this reply is oblique.

I have been encountering a lot of friends who ought to know better telling me, "i know you have  problems with the UID, but i must confess i don't understand what they are". It seems like a fair idea to me, worth trying.

And then i find that it is happening because they are only hearing what is being said to them. And since it is only Nilekani's voice and words that are being carried, they don't see that there is anything to worry them in that. I call it the death of imagination, and so there is no life beyond the stated. The innocence amazes me!!

I think you may also want to look at clause 25(2) of the Bill? Clearly the cost is not even meant to be recovered. may be they need to be told that too?

usha

19 - Fri, 9 Jul 2010

yes I heard about it. I do not  know the details they need to issue a number or the codification process..

if the the purpose is to allot just  A number that is unique to a person and have his data stored as per the number , it may have a limited purpose.

I would have preferred allotting a unique identification number that gives his background ( village name /of parents) esp from security angle ..where in we allow resident-ship to immigrants from Nepal , Srilanka, Burma etc ( which any way is happening illegally now) allow them to lead dignified life without harrasment  from authorities, yet differentiated from Indian born citizens( no more grant of citizen-ships to enhance vote banks) ... who elect govts..  Such measures will automatically solve the problems in Assam , North east and Kashmir etc....

the unique identity nos should be linked to the national census data/& also of sample survey .this is essential to determine BPO levels for financial assistance ...

I have a nagging fear that the system will be hijacked by the corrupt bureaucrats of India ..I wont be surprised if the influential criminal -politician have multiple identification numbers  like we have seen some cars of powerful guys in Delhi having ( carrying with them ) multiple vehicle registration numbers from various RTOs. similar to multiple Income Tax Permanent account numbers ( PAN numbers) issued for each of the many residential addresses they have across India ..( these are not hearsay but facts stranger than futon)

Mera Bharath Mahan

best regards

Cdr. mdm, IITD

18 - Thu, 8 Jul 2010

Dear  Ram:

Yes:Answers, based on my limited understanding however, to all  four questions ofyour Survey Ram are briefly placed below and I do hope, it might just add up a little to muchof info that you may get from all sides !  Loveful Regards                    Ashok

What have you heard about Aadhaar ?
UID project and Adhaar i guess are one and the same stuff as UID is renamed as Adhaar recently.


what do you think of Aadhaar..is it good or bad and why ?
Adhaar is in no way a good project and in my opinion JUST a smart way found to add to the fortunes of, and distribution of spill overs amongst select band of decision makers.
 On paper and through main sream Media Government is attempting to make Indian Citizen believe that the proposed project will help  poor people in terms of Education, Healthcare, Employment but No blue print or road maps were ever shared in details and the Media and the Government is maintaining a stoic silence on issues like these  !

How much Money is Govt of India spending on Aadhaar Project?

 Yes in Social Welfare Scemes for people and to derive 7 digit crores figures some seasoned juglers are groping thier hands in dark rooms, obviously for massive massive bailout that our informed corrupts in government have picked up cues curtesy thier Master Handlers or from those who Run business and Economy Schools to purposely  implant thier ex students to man and manage  major Economies of some nations.Just my views !
.
Spending: Govt is set to Spend a quickly approved budget of 1900 crores during this fiscal years BUT this 1900 cr may baloon and multiply many many times in subsequent years depending upon thier greed levels !!!

Do you think it will help the poor ? 
Helping poor  No. in no way but in name of poor a few hundreds aim to reach and touch thier fortune bags above darkening clouds for the poor.

I thank you Ram for including me in your Survey and would further appreciate, if possibly you may share with me your summary findings, at some later date whenever possible.

Loveful Regards

Ashok

17 - Thu, 8 Jul 2010

What have you heard about Aadhaar ?
The government's Unique Identity project got renamed as ‘Aadhar’ in April.  The UID authority claims it is on track to build an infrastructure on the back of which, multiple applications in finance, insurance, health, labour, and welfare services can be built.

Of the Rs 1,900 crore allotted to the project in this year's budget, the UID has set aside Rs 600 crore for technology contracts with the rest Rs 1,300 crore to be used to enable the registrars.

Nilekani defends the high cost of enrollment, saying a price discovery mechanism is underway at the two pilot projects in Andhra Pradesh where the enrollment cost so far totals Rs 131 per enrollment.

As the UID sets to roll out the first set of numbers by January 2011, it’s roping in more and more private companies as registrars in the project.Mobile usage is another plank for progress. All authentication will be through mobile. The basis of all financial inclusion applications will be mobile based. The project is already conceptualising a UID-enabled no-frills bank account for BPL families and hopes to leverage data from the FMCG, and telco players and from CREDAI.

what do you think of Aadhaar..is it good or bad and why ?

The dedicated computer based programs managed by the private sector have brought in much order in the system. Corruption has been reduced at the lower levels ie IT refunds due to direct credits and automated process of small refunds below Rs 1 lakh. Aadhaar has an excellent performance oriented team. The system will reduce corruption and improve vastly the success of the Manmohan Singh in reaching the ones below the poverty line beit foodgrain or funds. There will be several obstacles due to muscling in of political and rowdy elements which may need to be weeded out through the UID where the individual can alone collect the benefits of the minimum needs /food for work programmes

How much Money is Govt of India spending on Aadhaar Project?
Allocated in the current year Rs 1900 crores

Do you think it will help the poor ?
Yes

Prince Asirvatham, IITM

16 - Thu, 8 Jul 2010

What have you heard about Aadhaar ?    
Just the basic facts about UID and the new name & that it is spearheaded by Nandan Nilekani; that it is a techno-governance tool to better manage resources. Some friends also term it techno-racketing!

what do you think of Aadhaar..is it good or bad and why ?  
Anything new on a scale such as this has its good & bad elements.  I think the potential to improve lives as stated will depend on the role of all the agencies/ stake holders involved. Unimaginable amounts of money involved – the devil is in the details after all.
 
How much Money is Govt of India spending on Aadhaar Project?  
Going by info in the media: This project which has been launched at a budgeted cost of INR 1900 Crores for the year 2010-2011 in a country where the Government has officially declared that 400 million of its citizens are living below poverty. Nilekani has stated “Funds are not an issue” as the13th Financial Commission plans to allot 3,000 crores over the next 5 years. The entire project is estimated to offer over Rs. 15,000 crores in terms of opportunity to the IT and hardware industry (for biometric implementation) The Finance Commission has made a grant of about Rs 2,980 crore for the incentive for getting registered in the Aadhar scheme for people who might forgo a day’s income to travel and get themselves enrolled.   

Do you think it will help the poor ?    
Bettering the lives of 400 million people? Pipedream.  At another level, given the fact that most of these 400 million lack literacy, they may find themselves unable to handle this number in a meaningful way and thus face the danger of being virtually stripped of their rights. The incentive the Government plans to offer (Rs 100 for losing a day’s wages & getting enrolled) is to be credited into a Bank account – 400 million new bank accounts to be opened – too complicated to say the least. How many people have proof of Identity in a country such as ours? You need the following to OPEN a new account: valid id proof (pan card or Passport or driving license) along with Address proof – bank statement, ration card or telephone bill – now you know where I’m coming from!  


Malati

15 -  Wed, 7 Jul 2010

First impression about Aadhar is a good one -- since it is based on biometric ID, it can help address a lot of the corruption in the country, e.g. bogus voters, siphoning of goods from ration shops, home-based voting/referenda for major issues, exam impersonations, etc etc.

In fact, about 6 months prior to Aadhar becoming public knowledge, I had been pushing a database friend to write a newspaper article pushing for a biometric database and voter ID card for everyone to enable things like voting from home and elimination of impersonations.

Another good aspect is that Aadhar is headed by a person who does not have a need to become corrupt.

Haven't really thought deeper about any possible negatives.. privacy is of course an issue, but that is already compromised to a good extent by GPS-enabled mobile phone, internet connections, etc.

- S.V. IITM

14 - Thu, 8 Jul 2010

I'm afraid I cannot help you here.

AAdhaar - Never heard of it.

The Unique Identification Number is a great idea. But the fact of the matter is that the whole idea of id per se in India is not very foolproof. More than half the Sri Lankans in Europe, US, UK and else where in the world are refugees who left their country, came here applied for an Indian passport and then travelled to these and other destinations.

I think we need to get a foolproof system on the ground before we go in for an esoteric "Cloud" system like this one.

:(

Bobby

13 -  Mon, 17 May 2010

Hi Rambo:

I would like to respectfully point out to you that if currently any citizen of India has any significant resources (money or land) and or power, then the likely hood of their names currently being on some database is fairly great (credit card, passport, property registration, bank accounts etc). At the same time, if a person is poor, and has little or no resources or power, then they are unlikely to be on any database and most likely of little or no use to those who (Government officials or others) would stand to potentially benefit from them. The Government officials and others who are likely to use any information (from existing databases) they have is likely to target the rich and powerful from whom they can extract what ever they can. It is highly unlikely that they would spend their resources to track down the poor from whom they cannot extract much.

Therefore adding another number by which the government can track a person (of interest to them) is not going to significantly change the current situation. Therefore, Rambo I believe that the efforts and energy that you are putting into this cause is really not  worth the actual impact it is likely to have on the citizens  of India. It may benefit some institutions more than others, but other than that I do not see any significant and real impact occurring from the introduction of UID. I know that you are genuinely interested in protecting the social fabric of all fellow citizens of India by opposing the implementation of UID. However, for reasons that I have outlined above things are not likely to change much from the introduction of UID system for reason of concern to you.

I am not surprised at the plethora of blogs and articles on the subject, as each person who originates or instigates such blogs have their own personal agenda, beliefs, misinformation or paranoia that motivates them to publish such blogs for their personal gain. Our group (1969 IITM) in my opinion should not assist such groups to further disseminate such propaganda. We are supposed to be the elite and privileged citizens of India, who should be  able and have the knowledge and expertise to review the issue with greater objectivity and make comments appropriate to address the real practical and relevant  issues that emanate from it.

Joshy Kallungal, IITM